No dilly-dallying today.

Here’s part 2 of my interview with ex-Blackrock Managing Director and newsletter subscriber Khe Hy:

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Tom: People tend to think that financial independence will bring them freedom, happiness and peace of mind. But you distinguish between material independence and psychological independence. What’s the difference, and why does it matter?

Khe: I actually just gave a talk on this.

Financial independence won’t fill a void of purpose or meaning. If you don’t know what brings your life purpose, financial independence gives you more time to figure it out but also more time to be anxious about it. It’s a messy exploration.

Psychologically, I’ve had insecurities (like going bald) that no amount of money can fix. It can’t make that problem go away. So what’s really happening? Is it fear of death? Being judged? Abandonment?

Another is the need to make every moment productive. I still struggle with that. I try to be excellent at my hobbies. I was even intense about watching TV (I watched four seasons of The Wire in one month).

That’s a real psychological prison. Therapy (and especially Internal Family Systems) has helped a lot.

Tom: What keeps people locked into chasing money and status, even when the chase is making them more miserable rather than less miserable?

Khe: It’s very hard to go against the grain. Society tells you that’s the path. It’s also a lack of imagination, a lack of role models. That’s why I think the work I’m doing (and people like Paul Millerd) really matters. People blazing their own trails is an absolute must.

Thing is, people love themselves conditionally. They love themselves more if they're high status or make more money and they love themselves less if they don't. Practices like Metta and Tonglen from Buddhism, and attachment therapy, have helped me love myself unconditionally.

Tom: You coach high-achievers who “have it all” but still feel unfulfilled. What’s the real thing they’re chasing?

Khe: I think they’re chasing a sense of aliveness.

At first, it seems like they want time freedom, but a lot of them already have that because they’ve sold companies. It’s really about aliveness. Excitement about life.

It could be something small, like a morning cup of coffee, or something big, like the legacy they want to leave behind. Aliveness is a skill you cultivate through a practice. People think it’s a magic wand, but it’s not.

Tom: When do you still feel the pull of ambition, money or status? What do you do when it shows up?

Khe: It still shows up when I’m around peers who are still on the traditional track. Or when I watch a documentary about someone like Michael Jordan - someone excellent at their craft.

Then I ask myself: is this healthy ambition or unhealthy ambition?

It also shows up when people have something I want, and I feel like they didn’t work as hard for it. I get judgmental. That usually shows up around money and status.

And I still think about my net worth. I want it to go up, even though I’m not in a position where it can meaningfully go down. That’s a tough one.

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That’s it for now.

Part 3 of the interview drops tomorrow.